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Like all other real historical persons, "Mary, the mother of Jesus" should have a biographical section which states her date of birth and death, as any other real historical person. And if no, there should be a section on any history or controversy about this. 2601:18F:E80:894B:612E:BF10:BF5C:2EA4 (talk) 12:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sinclairian you have reverted both of my edits which suggest that Mary was 16 when giving birth to Jesus, the problem with your reverts is that you didn't change the citation in any way you just kept it the way it was before the edit. The Citation was: "According to the the apocryphal Gospel of James, Mary was approximately 13–14 years old when giving birth to Jesus.", this is wrong and I cited that in my edit and quoted that she was 16 when having Jesus as it says in chapter 12 of the Gospel of James: "And she remained three months with Elizabeth; and day by day she grew bigger. And Mary being afraid, went away to her own house, and hid herself from the sons of Israel. And she was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened." [1] In fact the citation had this article: [2] which doesn't say that according to the Gospel of James she was 14 but according to other apocryphal writings, however that same source says this about them: It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. The same source the citation uses says the apocryphal writings which state that Mary was 14 here are unreliable so they shouldn't be used to know Mary's age when giving birth to Jesus. The second problem here is that if she really was 14 why did Luke the Evangelist call her a woman in Luke 1:42? The Third problem here is that the citation also uses the Jewish customs surrounding marriage at the time, however Michael Satlow states that In Palestine, men married at around thirty to women who were ten or fifteen years younger.[3] So the age of consummation would be 15 to 20 years old so its very possible using this that Mary would be 16 at the Annunciation. Olek Novy (talk) 20:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think everyone is getting confused, the sources say that Mary was engaged to Joseph between the ages of 12 and 14. Then the sources say that Mary would become pregnant at the age of 16, and therefore would give birth at the age of 17. One thing was the age at which Mary was engaged to Joseph and another thing was the age at which Mary gave birth. I'm going to correct what you say about Mary giving birth between the ages of 13 and 14, which no source says. It says that she got engaged at that age, which is different.Rafaelosornio (talk) 23:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The catholic encyclopedia said the Mary was engaged at 12-14, but the annunciation occur two years later.
The Apocrypha really shouldn't even be considered the source of this. The article has scholarly guesses about how old Mary was when she had Jesus, which are the sources that should matter, and as one can see, there are varying opinions on the matter. They even include the possibility that she was in her twenties, as mentioned, and there is no reason why the youngest guessed age should be chosen as the truth over the others. Finncle (talk) 06:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The catholic encyclopedia said the Mary was engaged at 12-14, but the annunciation occur two years later.
From the article itself, in the Annunciation section: "Jewish girls were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances. The marriage was preceded by the betrothal, after which the bride legally belonged to the bridegroom, though she did not live with him till about a year later, when the marriage was celebrated." By this timeline, Mary was betrothed at 11 and a half, and did not cohabitate until a year had passed, at which point the Annunciation happened, since if the marriage had already been "celebrated" then she wouldn't have been a virgin anymore. Pregnancy takes 9 months; Mary would have been 13 or 14 at the time she gave birth. See also that Satlow claims men at 30 would marry women up to 15 years younger, meaning an age of 15 still fits the approximate range given, and that even this doesn't really matter because Joseph was supposedly 90 when he married Mary and thus the model doesn't even necessarily apply to him. Betrothal at ages 11/12, marriage at ages 12/13, childbirth at ages 13/14. Luke calling Mary a "woman" is also irrelevant as, again, in the 1st centuries BC/AD, a 13 year old boy was considered a "man" and a 12 year old girl was considered a "woman". Sinclairian (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we should really reconsider how much we rely on an article from The Catholic Encyclopedia from 1912. A source over a century old can be outdated. Still, even that part mentions that 'the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances'. The thing was that in practice marriage usually took place at a later age. At least that was the case in someone like Mary's environment, as Amram Tropper's research (2006) has shown, which is referred to in the 'Birth of Jesus' section. According to him: scholars suggest that the average age of first marriage in Palestine and the Western Diaspora was in the late teens or early twenties for women. Finncle (talk) 17:51, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
there's no annunciation section in the article, you get it from here:[4] the Protoevangelion of James does agree that Mary was 12 when married to joseph but states there was no consummation for the first 4 years of the marriage. If we go to the annunciation article, it states that: The opinion that Joseph at the time of the Annunciation was an aged widower and Mary twelve or fifteen years of age, is founded only upon apocryphal documents.[5] "Luke calling Mary a "woman" is also irrelevant as, again, in the 1st centuries BC/AD, a 13 year old boy was considered a "man" and a 12 year old girl was considered a "woman"" In Mark 5:35-42 we have a 12 year old being called a child and not a woman![6]Olek Novy (talk) 20:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
“and two years later the Annunciation took place.” It’s in the same paragraph where it said she was engaged at 12-14. The gospel of James said in chapter 12 she was 16 when she conceived. StillStill (talk) 13:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source given does not say that Mary gave birth between the ages of 13 and 14, this is original research, avoid an editing war or change the source that states what you say, because it seems that everything is your assumptions without any source to support it.Rafaelosornio (talk) 20:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So what should be done with the year of birth in the information box? We can't really know it. Now it is still partly based on weak argumentation based on the Apocrypha, which should not even be considered to be a source for it, and partly on the cultural customs, which include the possibility that she was several years older at the time of her betrothal than is now estimated in it. -Finncle (talk) 17:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay but I think it should be know that the Apocrypha isn’t reliable and Mary may have been older. Maybe some people are unaware that those books aren’t reliable. StillStill (talk) 13:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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The § New Testament section cites a mention of Mary in Matthew 2:12, but the reference is actually in verse 11.
Please edit the two references to Matthew 2:12 to 2:11, thus:—
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*The [[Gospel of Matthew]] mentions her by name five times, four of these (1:16, 18, 20: 2:12)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|1:16–2:12}}</ref> in the infancy narrative and only once (Matthew 13:55)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|13:55}}</ref> outside the infancy narrative.
+
*The [[Gospel of Matthew]] mentions her by name five times, four of these (1:16, 18, 20: 2:11)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|1:16–2:11}}</ref> in the infancy narrative and only once (Matthew 13:55)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|13:55}}</ref> outside the infancy narrative.
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Remsense ‥ 论 06:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)