Talk:Lenape

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 13 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Purplepeopleperson.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:25, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

untitled

This article is informative but poorly written in parts. For example, there is a whole section that refers to a person named "Killbuck" and his actions without saying who he is. The first introduction to this person is "there were divisions, including in Killbuck's family." The article then describes actions taken by Killbuck. While one can infer his historical importance from this, it's poor writing.

There are many sections where information is presented in a disorganized fashion and redundant statements are made.

There is also a bit of a POV throughout the article in terms of the descriptions of interactions between Europeans and Lenape. People who are writing/editing this article need to understand that while it is not a controversial position that Europeans treated native american peoples poorly, an encyclopedic article on people and history should not be worded in such a way where the wording of the article itself represents an ethical point of view. It is fine to describe and attribute the views of others regarding the history, but an encyclopedic tone should be factual and neutral.

For example, the article describes a controversial land deal that was apparently fraudulent as the "so called" deal. Describing the nature of what happened and the fraud that occurred is sufficient, describing the historical term with "so called" is editoralizing. If there is controversy regarding the terminology of what happened, describe the terminology and cite sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.119.158.12 (talk) 19:47, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Would I be able to create separate but linked pages for each nation within the tribe? I would love a page for the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvaia. I think this might help with the bulk. --Autosigned by purplepeopleperson--> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Purplepeopleperson (talk • contribs) 05:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Too long

This article is way too long. I'm trying to cull it down a little bit. Here's a long "reference." Please read up on original research. I cannot find this spelling and translation anywhere online. If it's published in a book, could you please provide the actual citation (author, book, page number, etc.)? -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Almost every historian has misinterpreted the simple meaning of “Lenape.” According to interviews with those who have some familiarity of the ancient language, Doris Riverbird of Quitapahilla, Pennsylvania, and Gary "Deer Standing Schreckengost" (Ah-too Nee-poo We-po-schwa-gen She-pong of Neshaminy, Mahantango, Tionesta, and Cocalico, Pennsylvania, the term Len Nee La-pee (or Len Ni Lapi) is translated directly to: "Man, Me, Again." In plain English it means, "Person-Like-Me." It was shortened to "Len-a-pee" (or Len-api). Len means “Man” in a generic sense, Ni means “Me,” and Lapi means “Again” or “Like or As.” See the words for “Man,” “Me,” and “Again” in Brinton’s A Lenâpé - English Dictionary, Rice’s English-Lenape Dictionary, Zeisberger’s Indian Dictionary: English, German, Iroquois—The Onondaga and Algonquin—The Delaware, Zeisberger’s Lenâpé-English Dictionary: From An Anonymous [Manuscript] In The Archives Of The Moravian Church At Bethlehem, [Pennsylvania], and Zeisberger’s Grammar of the Language of the Lenni Lenape or Delaware Indians. William Penn and the English, Dutch, or Swedish traders who preceded him, apparently misunderstood the term as “Real” or “Original People.” What the Lenape actually meant was that they saw themselves as the real, natural, or original people of the area; nothing more, nothing less. The Lenape language is very direct, bereft of filler words. See Myers’s William Penn’s Own Account of the Lenni Lenape or Delaware Indians, p. 22, and Grumet’s The Lenapes, p. 13.

I can't find any published citation for the following spelling, so I'm returning to the published spelling.

...called "Len-api Hok Ing" (People-Like-Me-Area-Place).

Unpublished interviews don't qualify as acception citations, since they are original research. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

And another:

As such, all subsequent English settlers of the area used the exonym “Delaware Indians” for almost all the Lenape living along this river and its many tributaries. The Dutch and the Swedes, however, called Len-api Hanna the South River, to differentiate it from the North or Hudson River of modern New York. As such, they often called the Lenape the “South River Indians." The Lenape also considered Len-api Hanna and its tributaries as a tree. Among this "tree," they lived in small, scattered, towns, or sometimes in single-family settlements. As such, Len-api Hanna is also called Len-api Wit-uck or "People-Like-Me-Tree."

The following does not connect to the name of the tribe, so I'm placing it here. Bold formatting is usually only reserved for the first mention of the article's namesake. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

The major tributaries of Len-api Hanna or "branches" of Len-api Wit-uck are Ass-ah Woe-man Hanna (modern Indian Bay, Delaware), Maak-waas Hanna (Bear River—modern Christina River, Delaware—called Minquas Kill or “Minquas Creek” by the Dutch traders), Rank Oak-us Hanna (modern Rancocas Creek, New Jersey), Koe-han Seet Hanna (modern Cohansey River, New Jersey), Tool-pay Hanna (Turtle River—called Schuylkill or “Hidden Creek” by the Dutch—modern Schuylkill River, Pennsylvania), Musk-on-et Hanna (modern Musconetcong River, New Jersey), and the Lock-ah Hanna (Sand River—modern Lehigh River, Pennsylvania).

The major sub-territories of Len-api Hoking were Sick-oh-nees Unk (Siconese, modern Lewes, Delaware),Maax-waas Hanna Unk (Bear River Place—present Wilmington, Delaware—also called “Minguannan” by early Dutch and Swedish traders for Minquas Hanna Unk), Hopo Hok Ing (Clay Area Place—modern northern Delaware), Man-tes Unk (modern Glouchester, New Jersey), Ran-coe Unk (modern Rancocas, New Jersey), Check-en-awk Ing (“Blackbird Place,” modern Chester, Pennsylvania), Tin-eek Unk (modern Tinicum, South Philadelphia), Wick-ak Unk (modern Wicaco, South Philadelphia), Pass-ay Unk (“Low Place,” modern Passyunk, Central Philadelphia at Penn’s Landing), Wiss-ee-in-ohm Ing (modern Wissionoming, North Philadelphia), Tack-ohn Ing (modern Tacony, North Philadelphia), Shacka-max Ing (or Shackamaxon, modern Frankford-Kensington of North Philadelphia), Min-ach Unk (modern Biles Island, Pennsylvania), Poe-kwes Ing (“Mouse Place,” modern Poquessin or Bensalem, Pennsylvania), Pem-ik-pack Ing (modern Pennypacking, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Wiss-ah-Hok Ing (“Catfish Area Place,” modern Wissahickon, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania), Per Key-ohm Unk (“Cranberry Place,” modern Perkiomen, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania), Man-ay Unk ("Food Place," modern Manayunk, Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania), Cha-coe Lahk Ing (“Frogs Place,” modern Conshohocken, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania), Schick-oh Hok Ing (“Pickerel Area Place,” modern Burlington Island, New Jersey, in the Delaware River; it’s the oldest known Lenape settlement site in the world), Sip Ah-pess Ing (“Plum Tree Place,” modern Falls Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania, where William Penn made his first land purchase with the Lenape for his new estate, which he called “Pennsbury Manor”), Sank Hok Ing (“Flint Place,” modern Trenton, New Jersey), Ass-un Ing (modern Princeton, New Jersey), Tow-is Ing (modern Wrightstown, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Plew-ick Ing (“Turkey Place,” modern Playwicki Park, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Neesh Ah-ma Ing (“Drink Two-Times Place, modern Neshaminy Township, Bucks County), Win-ah Hawch Unk (modern Washington’s Crossing, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Hol-ek Unk (modern Holicong and Doylestown, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Peck-oh Que-oh Ing (modern Pechoqueolm, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Peh-sen Eh-win Ing (modern Mint Island, Bucks County, Pennsylvania ), Awk-wat Unk (“Pine Tee Place,” modern Aquetong, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Poe- kess Ing ("Hickory Nut Place," modern Perkasie, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Quit-oh Law-wiss Ing (“Many Springs Place,” modern Solebury Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Tuck-we-mens Ing (“Black Walnut Trees Place,” modern Solebury Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Nock-ah-mix Ing (“Soft Soil Place,” modern Nockamixon Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Ah-too Hok Ing (“Deer Place,” modern Tohican Creek, Bucks County, Pennsylvania), Oak-ah Hok Ing (modern Willstown Township, Chester County, Pennsylvania), Tool-pay Hok Ing (“Turtle Area Place,” modern Tulpehocken, which are the southwestern townships adjoining and including Reading, Berks County, Pennsylvania), Gook-al-ee Unk (“Reptile Place,” modern East Cocalico, West Cocalico, Clay, Warwick, Elizabeth, and Penn townships, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania), Swat-are Ing (modern Bethel, Swatara, and North Annville townships, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, and East Hanover, South Hanover, Swatara, and Lower Swatara townships, Dauphin County, Pennsylvania), Quit-ah Pa-hill Ing (modern Heidelberg, Jackson, North Lebanon, South Lebanon, North Corwall, West Cornwall, South Annville, and South Londonderry townships, as well as Lebanon City and the Quitapahilla Creek, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania), Pax-tan Ing (modern Middle Paxton, Lower Paxton, and Susquehanna townships as well as the City of Harrisburg, Dauphin County. Pennsylvania), May-hoe Ing (“Food Place,” modern Upper Paxton and Halifax townships, Dauphin County), May-hoe Ah-too Hok Ing (“Food Deer Area Place,” modern Upper Mahantongo and Eldred townships, Schuylkill County, and Upper Mahanoy, Washington, Jordan, Jackson, and Lower Mahanoy townships, as well as the Mahantango Creek and Mahantango Mountain, Northumberland County, Pennsylvania), Max-ah Tawn Ing (modern Maxatawny Township, Berks County, Pennsylvania), Mack-unj Ing (modern Upper and Lower Macungie townships, Lehigh County, Pennsylvania), Lock-ah Hanna Unk (“Sand River Place,” present Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, Lehigh County, Pennsylvania), Kit Ah-tin Ing (“Far Go Place” or beginning of the “Endless Mountains,” modern Kitatinny Mountains, northern Northampton, Lehigh, Berks, Lebanon, and Daupin counties, Pennsylvania), and Hop-ah-ta Unk (modern Hopatcong, New Jersey).

Pzrschreck (talk) 12:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)pzrschreckPzrschreck (talk) 12:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC) Uyvsdi--maybe it would be better if I placed things here first, and then you, if you like it, edit it and place it? I'm slowly learning Wiki World. Anyway, how about if I place some stuff from Gulong Fur, Weslager, and Kraft? Pzrschreck (I don't know if I put the code in right...

New comments should go at the bottom of a discussion. Independent of any of your additions, this article needs to be broken into multiple smaller articles. Right now the article is 80,949 bytes, after I brought it down from 111,467 bytes (This info is accessible when you check out the "history" tab). Usually anything over 50,000 bytes should be broken into smaller articles (info at wp:length), and what's here needs to be pared down to the clearest, simplest info (think what people are willing to actually need on the internet).

Regarding edits, please don't bold prose that's not the first mention of the article's name in the lead paragraph (sometime people bold items in tables, but not in prose paragraphs). Hopefully, you've been able to read WP:Original research by now. A tertiary source like Wikipedia only relies on verifiable, published, secondary sources. Interviews, self-published works, etc. are not appropriate sources. You've been posting unusual orthographies that I cannot find anywhere else on the Internet, including mentions in published books on Google, that include 19th-century books. Just stick to what can be verified. Also, WP:Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Removal of improperly sourced information

I just reverted a large amount of material that was unsupported by reliable sources. Material that is print-on-demand by a vanity press is considered to be a self-published source and unreliable. GregJackP Boomer! 22:37, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Reducing length

To try to get this 81,000k article down to a readable size, I would like to propose summarizing then creating a separate Lenape history article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 06:20, 9 December 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Map caption

The caption for the map in the info box is as follows:

Lenapehoking, the original Lenape territory. Munsee speakers in the north,

Unami-speakers in the center, and Unalichtigo-speakers in the south (with citations). However, the map itself, in the legend, says that the dark green area in the south are "Southern Unami Dialect", the green mid-tone in the center is "Northern Unami-Unalachtigo Dialect". It's possible that there's a perfectly good reason for this, perhaps differing taxonomic systems of Lenape dialects, but if so that should be made explicit somewhere within the article (if not within the caption). Otherwise one of them is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.19.128 (talk) 07:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Additionally, the Rancocas (Rankokas) reservation in New Jersey on the map has closed and no longer exists. It's now a state park. RRuszczyk (talk) 06:40, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Was Voltaire wrong about William Penn's 1683 treaty with the Lenape Indians?

There is a discussion here about William Penn's 1683 treaty with the Lenape Indians, and specifically whether Voltaire's famous quote ("...a treaty never written, never broken") from his 1764 Dictionnaire philosophique was incorrect. Could someone please take a look at it? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Use of "First Nations" in intro

According to Wikipedia's own article on the subject, "First Nations" is used to describe Canadian groups, not American. Is there a source to indicate that the Lenape use the Canadian term to describe themselves? 68.146.233.86 (talk) 19:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Western perspective over represented

I tagged the article today because too much of it is written from a Western perspective instead of telling the history of these people from their own historical perspective. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Lede vs. article body

The lede contains a great deal of information about the Beaver Wars that is not in the body. Indeed, the term "Beaver Wars" does not even appear in the body. On the other hand, the lede omits mention of various significant portions of the article. Moreover, the lede contains several long notes that should either be in directly in the body or should be notes for the body, not the lede.

In reading through the body of the article, it seems to me the same details appear in multiple places. The article could use a thorough editing. Indyguy (talk) 03:00, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Uncited clan info

Hi, these paragraphs have been uncited since December 2013. If anyone wants to verify them, then they cna be reinserted into the article. Yuchitown (talk) 17:11, 30 December 2017 (UTC)Yuchitown

By 1682, when William Penn arrived to his American commonwealth, the Lenape had been so reduced by disease, famine, and war that the sub-clan mothers had reluctantly resolved to consolidate their families into the main clan family. This is why William Penn and all those after him believed that the Lenape clans had always only had three divisions ('Turtle, Turkey, and Wolf) when, in fact, they had over thirty on the eve of European contact. For example, some time between 1650 and 1680, the Bear, Deer, etc. families, with few members left, absorbed into the leading Wolf Family.

To add clarity to the clan system, all males, as a part of their passage rites into adulthood, were tattooed with their clan symbol on their chests. This is why many English, Dutch, and Swedish traders believed that the Lenape had three or more tribes, when in fact, they were one nation of kindred people.

References

Access to courts was allowed to non-citizens

Under "Kansas reservation" in this Lenape article, the third paragraph says "As the Delaware were not considered United States citizens, they had no access to the courts and no way to enforce their property rights." While I think the Delaware probably were not US citizens until the 20th century, that lack of citizenship wouldn't prevent access to courts. Foreign nationals file lawsuits all the time and could do beginning in 1789; Section 2 of Article III of the US Constitution allows federal suits between "a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects."

When the Delaware could not file lawsuits in courts before in the 19th century, it was likely a lack of standing and not a lack of citizenship; US citizens also get thrown out of court sometimes for lack of standing even to this day. It's possible that the Indian tribe, rather than individual Indians, had standing. For example, if someone wanted to enforce a treaty between a tribe and the US government, the tribe is probably the correct party to file a lawsuit. That's not to say that the tribe could sue the US government, because the US government has to consent to being sued by anybody, a principle that still lives today. In summary, the lack of citizenship was not the cause of lack of access to courts, if they lacked access to the courts, so the sentence I quoted from the Kansas reservation portion of the Lenape article is incorrect.

As further evidence of aliens' ability to sue -- Section 9 of the Judiciary Act of 1789 gave US District Courts jurisdiction over some cases when non-citizens sue to enforce a treaty. Section 9 says, "[District courts] shall also have cognizance, concurrent with the courts of the several States, or the circuit courts, as the case may be, of all causes where an alien sues for a tort only in violation of the law of nations or a treaty of the United States." Section 9 gave Circuit Courts jurisdiction, "concurrent with the courts of the several States, of all suits of a civil nature at common law or in equity, where the matter in dispute exceeds, exclusive of costs, the sum or value of five hundred dollars, and the United States are plaintiffs, or petitioners; or an alien is a party. . . ." The Judiciary Act was amended after 1789 but probably not in a way that changes the conclusion that aliens were allowed to file lawsuits in federal court. RW7890 (talk) 22:32, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Concerned about sources

I just cut most of the language section because the translations listed were not in the sources. There are links to the sources in my edit summaries. I am now concerned about content in the article being accurately sourced. I will try and go through them as time permits but could use a hand. Indigenous girl (talk) 05:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The LENAPE HISTORY EXISTS.

There are TWO histories of America: The LENAPE history (1000-1585) and the MYTHICAL NEW WORLD (1609-present).

The Lenape history survives as the “Walam Olum sacred texts” and as LENAPE LAND

But survival does not produce enduring knowledge. Over 4,500 universities teach the NEW WORLD MYTH twice a year.

Please join the VANGUARD of the advocates for the Lenape history.

<refhttps://lenapehistory.blogspot.com/2019/07/vanguard-invitation.html/ref>

MYRON, @LENLAPE LAND.2601:648:8500:C7F6:11D9:5E9A:5B7A:D582 (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

The "Walam Olum" has been discredited as a hoax. It has no place in any legitimate discussion. Shoreranger (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, let's please keep this limited to legitimate sources. Indigenous girl (talk) 20:25, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: mention of Henry Hudson's meeting of the Lenape at Manhattan Island (later to become New York City) in September 1609. More information 173.88.246.138 (talk) 06:45, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

They hunted turkey as well?

"...they mainly hunted deer, but from the months of January to the spring planting in May, they hunted anything from bears and beavers to raccoons and foxes."

Since one of their three clans, as indicated within the article, was named for the turkey, wouldn't it seem likely that they also hunted the game bird? Indeed, I'd think it would have been a major source of meat. Is there any evidence for this; if so, can it be included in the paragraph I noted above?HistoryBuff14 (talk) 19:55, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

17th century

Unlike others here, I don't think the page is too long, but "as in 1632 a local band of Lenape killed the 32 Dutch settlers after a misunderstanding escalated over Lenape defacement of the insignia of the Dutch West India Company" seems to be incorrect.

The Lenape outnumbered the colonizers 10 to 1 at that time. They could have wiped out all colonizers at any moment with ease. The the Sickoneysinck attack on the Dutch outpost of Swanendael in the summer of 1631 was not a mistake.

For several years, Dutch patroons had been attempting to establish ownership over a two-mile stretch of land on the coast of the Delaware Bay near Cape Henlopen. Since 1629, the Dutch had been clearing fields, breeding livestock, and cordoning off their claimed territory with tin standards of the Dutch coat of arms. To the Lenape inhabitants who agreed to deed the Dutch just enough land for a trading outpost, such conduct reeked of the same kind of illicit colonial incursions that bedeviled their indigenous neighbors on the Chesapeake. In 1631 the Sickoneysincks took action, killing about thirty settlers and laying waste to the Dutch outpost's livestock, buildings, and palisade. Where once a Dutch coat of arms stood, the Lenape now left the smoldering clothes and mutilated bodies of colonists.

It was from this crucible of violence that the Delaware Valley began to forge its reputation for peace and tolerance. According to Jean R. Soderlund, the Lenape attack on Swanendael was a "rational act in a violent world". Recognizing that Dutch-sponsored colonization could ultimately lead to "European violence, slavery, and expropriation of lands," the Lenape wisely asserted their political and military power over the region, demonstrating to all would-be colonizers that they were committed to peaceful trading relationships, but ultimately capable of severe violence. And in fact the attack would color Amerindian-Euramerican relations throughout the seventeenth century, as its memory continued to persuade Native and Euramerican actors to pursue peace over conflict.

Source: Lenape Country: Delaware Valley Society Before William Penn (Early American Studies), 2016, by Jean R. Soderlund.

Languages?

How many languages did they and their related tribes speak? 2601:280:5B80:A7C0:191A:74BE:F4FB:BE8F (talk) 03:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Delaware origin editing problem?

"The tribe's common name Delaware comes from the French language. English colonists named the Delaware River for the first governor of the Province of Virginia, Lord De La Warr. The British colonists began to call the Lenape the Delaware Indians because of where they lived."

Unless I am misunderstanding it, the first sentence of this paragraph seems to contradict the rest. MyIP19216811 (talk) 01:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion from society section: single inadequate source

The society section's lengthy account of Lenape matrilineal society relies on a single, dated (1961) and non-academic source: 'The American Heritage Book of Indians' (!) This is inadequate, surely, especially for such a key aspect of the subject matter. I propose to delete this subsection unless someone can introduce better citations. Atrapalhado (talk) 09:48, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support. This article is far longer than what's readable. This section is not useful and very questionable. Yuchitown (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  I cited and moved up two very basic sentences about Lenape society and clans. Yuchitown (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks - have now made the cut. Atrapalhado (talk) 20:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)