Talk:Elon Musk
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Q1: Can I write a message to Elon Musk here? (No.)
A1: No. The "Talk:Elon Musk" page is not for writing messages to Musk. It is only for discussing changes to the Wikipedia article about him. Writing a message to Musk here is pointless and disruptive, and such messages will be removed as an improper use of the page. Q2: Can you update the article to call Musk a "business magnet"? (No.)
A2: No. Musk once suggested in an interview that his Wikipedia article be changed to describe him as a "business magnet" rather than a magnate. The tone of that interview was not very serious; he also claimed to be an alien.[1] Wikipedia doesn't have to do what Musk says, and this request has been made and declined dozens of times already. New requests may be removed without a response so that other discussions are not disrupted. Q3: Should Musk be identified as South African in the opening sentence?
A3: Musk is a US citizen (since 2002) born and raised in South Africa, and also acquired Canadian citizenship via his mother. Including these nationalities in the opening sentence in a balanced way would be complex, and the consensus is that they should instead be explained later in the lead. Q4: Can you change "Tesla CEO" to "Tesla Technoking"?
A4: No, because he is still CEO according to company records and that is a common corporate title that readers will understand, unlike "Technoking". The goal of the article is to inform people, which would be hindered by raising a confusing technicality. Q5: Should the mention of Errol Musk having an interest in an emerald mine be removed in view of Elon's denials?
A5: While Elon today vehemently disputes any history with an emerald mine, he formerly accepted and even confirmed it. Specifically, a 2014 report originally printed in the San Jose Mercury News (and cited in the article) stated that Errol Musk had "a stake in" a mine. Elon affirmed his father's mine involvement in an interview with Jim Clash, a career interviewer of public figures, that was published by Forbes and withdrawn without explanation a few months later. Elon biographer Ashlee Vance likewise confirmed Errol's mining interest, with Elon's objections but not denials, in a 2020 interview report with Elon. Errol has stated that he received hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of emeralds from his dealings. Q6: Should "Bachelor of Arts in Physics" be "Bachelor of Science" instead?
A6: No. Although it may seem counterintuitive, "Bachelor of Arts in Physics" is the degree that the University of Pennsylvania (among other schools) awards. Q7: Should the article acknowledge doubts about Musk's academic record?
A7: Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons requires that negative information about a person must be attributed to reliable published sources, and excludes both self-published sources (e.g. Twitter threads) and court trial records. The article states that sources disagree about when Musk obtained bachelor degrees, and that he did not attend Stanford for any significant amount of time. Any doubts beyond this require appropriate sources. Q8: Why doesn't this article describe Musk as an engineer?
A8: Musk is chief engineer of SpaceX, a title that applies within the company and that the press regularly mentions. He is not a professional engineer, a distinction within engineering that carries certain legal privileges in the United States, nor has he completed an engineering training program, nor has he ever been hired as an engineer. The article therefore does not include any of these claims. It does note that, from time to time, Musk has made initial product proposals at his companies that his trained engineers then research and develop. He does hold IEEE Honorary Membership. Q9: Why doesn't the article identify Musk as co-founder of PayPal?
A9: Because that could mislead readers that Musk was involved in the creation of the PayPal service and brand, when he was not. Instead, as the article states, he co-founded a company (X.com Corporation) that acquired the company that had developed PayPal (Confinity Inc.) and then renamed itself as PayPal, Inc. Q10: Why does this page include criticism of Musk's actions and stances?
A10: Musk is criticized/praised a lot in many reliable sources, and as such we need to talk about these criticisms and praise. To quote from Wikipedia's policy on a neutral point of view, articles must represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Q11: Why is this a "good article" when some people consider Musk a bad person?
A11: "Good article" on Wikipedia refers to the way the article is written, not what kind of person Musk is. Good articles have been found to satisfy Wikipedia editorial standards for accuracy, verifiability and balanced presentation. Q12: Why doesn't this page call Musk African American?
A12: African Americans are an ethnic group of Americans with total or partial ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Reliable sources do not use this term to describe Musk. References
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Government infobox
[edit]Given that his position in DOGE is considered “outside the government” by various reliable sources, should we keep the government infobox? 107.115.171.128 (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- NO as it does not even exist yet. Slatersteven (talk) 11:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- When it exists, should we? I don't know if it will be something relevant enough especially after the 2nd Trump administration is over. For example, Pelé was minister of Sports of Brazil from 1995 to 1998. He still has this position in his infobox, but below everything else that makes him relevant and memorable. Lucafrehley (talk) 21:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- No. We don't need any more infobox bloat. ~ HAL333 20:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- When it exists, should we? I don't know if it will be something relevant enough especially after the 2nd Trump administration is over. For example, Pelé was minister of Sports of Brazil from 1995 to 1998. He still has this position in his infobox, but below everything else that makes him relevant and memorable. Lucafrehley (talk) 21:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Not the wealthiest
[edit]Elon Musk is rich, filthy rich, but he is not the richest guy in the world. For starters, there are people with more clandestine wealth that wipe their bums with banknotes in places like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Russia. This is well known, often reported, and Musk himself has spoken about it in the past. But he also doesn't literally have $304 billion dollars to throw around as we speak. It's in total assets, if he sold them all tomorrow to purchase something, they'd lose their value and he'd end up with tens of billions less. You for Me and Me for You (talk) 02:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- THis is always going to be an issue, as it will change often. As such (I think) it is just a bit too newsy for an encyclopedia, but others disagree. Slatersteven (talk) 11:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- If I'm not wrong, didn't we establish a consensus against describing him as the "wealthiest" a while back? (I still feel that way at least.) ~ HAL333 05:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
- We have a source that says he's the wealthiest. Do you have one that says he's not? GA-RT-22 (talk) 22:49, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- GA-RT-22 Firstly, I advise you to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Verifiability. Secondly, no one is advocating for the lead to expressly state that he is not the wealthiest person. Thus we need no source for that. It seems unwise to include a highly unstable attribute like "wealthiest" when Musk is superseded every other month. As it changes often, the claim will inevitably and frequently become either outdated or will violate WP:CRYSTALBALL. Net worth estimates are also highly unreliable, and we should not conclusively state that Musk is the wealthiest when someone like Putin is almost certainly "wealthier". The best approach would be to simply say that "Musk is one of the wealthiest men in the world." ~ HAL333 00:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe you should read Wikipedia:Verifiability. We have a source for "wealthiest individual". YFM wants to remove this because he believes the source is wrong. We don't normally do that unless we have another source that contradicts the first one. That's why I'm asking if he has such a source. There may be other reasons to remove "wealthiest individual" but I'm not addressing that. GA-RT-22 (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- I have read Wikipedia:Verifiability, and within it you should have found WP:VNOT: i.e. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. You haven't given a single reason for the inclusion of this claim besides "I have a source." Why shouldn't we go back to the old status quo? Why should we include this volatile and unencyclopedic claim when it flies in the face of WP:VNOT, WP:CRYSTALBALL, WP:NOTNEWS, and the other policies that you are apparently unable to "address". ~ HAL333 19:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Second.
- Also, hi Hal, good seeing you in these parts again. QRep2020 (talk) 14:27, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- YFM wants to remove this because he believes the source is wrong.
- One day you're going to end up making this assumption about a woman and you'll be blasted for it.
- The world's wealthiest person as per the sources in the article changes frequently. Bezos and Bernard Arnault have snatched that title from Musk several times, and so it would be far more practical to just call Musk “one of the wealthiest”. On a deeper level, you, Musk and I both know there are people with more clandestine bank accounts, whose riches far exceed those of paper billionaires like Musk and Bezos. Again, if Musk liquidated all his Tesla stock overnight for whatever reason, he would tank its price and be left with far less than $300 billion. You for Me and Me for You (talk) 20:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- I have read Wikipedia:Verifiability, and within it you should have found WP:VNOT: i.e. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. You haven't given a single reason for the inclusion of this claim besides "I have a source." Why shouldn't we go back to the old status quo? Why should we include this volatile and unencyclopedic claim when it flies in the face of WP:VNOT, WP:CRYSTALBALL, WP:NOTNEWS, and the other policies that you are apparently unable to "address". ~ HAL333 19:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe you should read Wikipedia:Verifiability. We have a source for "wealthiest individual". YFM wants to remove this because he believes the source is wrong. We don't normally do that unless we have another source that contradicts the first one. That's why I'm asking if he has such a source. There may be other reasons to remove "wealthiest individual" but I'm not addressing that. GA-RT-22 (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- GA-RT-22 Firstly, I advise you to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Verifiability. Secondly, no one is advocating for the lead to expressly state that he is not the wealthiest person. Thus we need no source for that. It seems unwise to include a highly unstable attribute like "wealthiest" when Musk is superseded every other month. As it changes often, the claim will inevitably and frequently become either outdated or will violate WP:CRYSTALBALL. Net worth estimates are also highly unreliable, and we should not conclusively state that Musk is the wealthiest when someone like Putin is almost certainly "wealthier". The best approach would be to simply say that "Musk is one of the wealthiest men in the world." ~ HAL333 00:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Polarizing views
[edit]The lead section mentions that "Musk's actions and expressed views have made him a polarizing figure", which I will certainly not dispute. However, unless I'm mistaken, it is fairly recent (2020 or so). Shouldn't we specify this ? Right now, the intro makes it look as if he always was polarizing. The fact that his views evolved over time is mentioned in the lead section of Views of Elon Musk. Psychloppos (talk) 17:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- The present perfect here isn’t really implying that he was always polarizing; just that he has been polarizing since some unsaid point, and that he continues to be at this point. Further, I don’t know that he was ever not-polarizing, but certainly not to the degree he is now. That is, I get what you’re going for here, and another paragraph between the first and second of § Public perception, covering the evolution of his public perception wouldn’t go amiss. Structurally, that would give us the first paragraph on his current perception, and then one on his history of perception. It would also allow us to reframe those later paragraphs in terms of the various public images he has held (Tony Stark to Lex Luthor, if you like). — HTGS (talk) 00:37, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
How to appropropratly document the perception of Musk as an oligarch in this article ?
[edit]I Think I already brought up the topic once before, but I feel due to current events, the Topic needs an update anyway. Maybe my Question could become part of the FAQ, since I guess I might not be the Only one considering Musk as an Oligarch. And their are a lot of International News Article where Musk is considered an Oligarch so why not document this perception in this article? Aberlin2 (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- That seems like it would make an appropriate addition to the section Elon Musk#Public perception. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- I removed this from the lead because it wasn't in the body and is pretty serious to level in a BLP. It is not a significant accusation besides a few opinion pieces, so it doesn't even belong in this article. What could be added is mentions of his outsize influence in politics, however that's already mentioned in the final paragraph of the lead. Bill Williams 00:51, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- He seems to meet the Oxford Language Dictionary definition based on recent events ("very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence"), but agreed this is not referenced/corroborated enough with satisfactory sources to be beyond a mention in the Elon Musk#Public perception section Nicnotesay hello!contribs 01:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nicnote I think it should mean something for his representation in the article that he is an Oligarch based on the definition.
- otherwise the article is not meeting the criteria of neutrality because it would hide this aspect Aberlin2 (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Bill Williams that referring Musk as Oligarch in the Lead, would likely be a violation of WP:BLP, due to the negative connotations associted with Oligarchs. Also, most current WP:RS sources do not refer to Musk as an Oligarch, so it would likely violate WP:RS and WP:DUE too. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think I should only be mentioned in the article body with relevant context using NPOV language after achieving WP:Consensus, due to its contentious nature in a BLP article. RogerYg (talk) 09:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Bill Williams that referring Musk as Oligarch in the Lead, would likely be a violation of WP:BLP, due to the negative connotations associted with Oligarchs. Also, most current WP:RS sources do not refer to Musk as an Oligarch, so it would likely violate WP:RS and WP:DUE too. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
A more recent photograph is needed
[edit]Musk is one of the most prominent public figures on Earth, and his physical appearance has changed significantly since 2018. A more recent cover image is needed. Here is an adequate option from 2023: The Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi meeting Mr. Elon Musk in New York, USA on June 20, 2023 (2) (cropped).jpg
Firecat93 (talk) 05:13, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
Born in South Africa
[edit]On the page about Karl Marx, it says "Karl Marx (German: [kaʁl ˈmaʁks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883) was a German-born". In the first paragraph of this article, I think it should say "Elon Reeve Musk FRS (/ˈiːlɒn/; born June 28, 1971) is a South African-born businessman known for his." Just because he's a citizen of USA and UK doesn't mean you need to remove the fact he's South Africa guy. Why isn't his birth mentioned in the first paragraph. It could also say "South African-born American" or simply "South African-born." DisneyGuy744 (talk) 23:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- See the FAQ at the top. QRep2020 (talk) 06:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- As previosly discussed, per MOS:BLPLEAD , current citizenship "American" should get priority.
- Previous consensus is not to include South-African born in the first sentence, but mention it later in the lead. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) RogerYg (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- ok DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Somehow, the article short desciption still says South African born businessman, which should be changed to something more appropriate per previous discussions. RogerYg (talk) 09:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- THat is not the lead. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Somehow, the article short desciption still says South African born businessman, which should be changed to something more appropriate per previous discussions. RogerYg (talk) 09:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- ok DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Business career of Elon Musk
[edit]Needs a new page due to long read Loveforwiki (talk) 12:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. We need to raise a request to split this content into a new Wiki page. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 01:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
DOGE is a notable aspect - needs to be briefly mentioned in First paragraph
[edit]As per WP:LEAD and WP:Firstparagraph, DOGE has emerged as a widely reported notable aspect, and hence deserves mention in the first paragraph of the lead. RogerYg (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Lack of Citation
[edit]There isn’t a single citation starting with the paragraphs directly below his signature extending to the early life section. There are several statements that could use citation. WhowinsIwins (talk) 09:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Citations are generally avoided in the lead (see WP:LEADCITE), as the lead should summarise the rest of the article. Anything that's in the lead should be cited later on in the article. — Czello (music) 09:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ideally, the lede is meant to summarise the key points of the content of the article, and the infobox also adheres to the mandate. BarntToust 19:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
NPOV Bedrohung der Demokratie und Oligarchie sollte eine größere Gewichtung bekommen
[edit]in der aktuellen Version des Artikels bekommt die Beobachtung, dass Elon Musk in seiner Kommunikation memes verwendet eine größere Aufmerksamkeit und priorisierung in der Gliederung des Artikels als die Beobachtung beispielsweise eines Wirtschaftsnobelpreisträgers, dass man ihn als Oligarch und betrogen für die Demokratie sehen kann. ich denke das ist eine unausgewogene Sache und sollte entsprechend mit dem entsprechenden Baustein zu Beginn des Artikels dokumentiert werden, was denkt ihr? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:24, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- uah sorry, I was accidentally in the wrong language version. this comment was meant for the German Wikipedia Aberlin2 (talk) 16:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
New article
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